Let me not beat around the bush here. Let me be direct. If you can’t handle it..stop reading. If you can, you have to promise to keep reading till the end!
Here it is…ready?
I believe one of the most destructive ideas for for ministry in church history is the idea of adult Sunday School.
There…I said it. Make you mad?
I have gotten into more arguments than you can imagine about this topic. I have also run into more road blocks to progress for student and childrens ministry because of this than any other.
I’m tired of arguing about it. So, if you’ll bear with me…let me go about my reasoning in a different way.
But…in order to do this…you have to put that last statement behind you and clear your mind.
You ready? No?…Go get a cup of coffee and walk this off.
Ready now? OK…here we go.
I get to work with about 400 of the most incredible adults I know in our student ministry. They sign up to invest in a group of kids lives for 3 years. They give up two or more weekends a year and every Sunday over 90% of them show to particpate and convince their assigned groups of kids that they are loved and important. They range from HS students to retirees. They are simply amazing. They are indispensable. Our ministry would be nothing but lights,sound, and music without them.
They are the ministry.
If I asked them if they wanted adult community (and we do) they would be all over it.
If I asked them if they wanted to dig into scripture, learn from each other, and debate each other they would be all over it.
If I asked them to take a leadership role in that, many would be all over that.
If I asked them if they wanted some oversight as to the direction and the content, they would probably love the insight and investment.
If I asked them to do it on Sunday morning instead of leading their group of students they would simply and clearly say…
“Are you out of your mind? Why would I do that? I love my student group. Those kids are counting on me. Those kids need me. By some providential act, I’ve been put into those kids lives and they have been put into mine. Besides…I get more out of that then they do. I love to serve. I need to do all those things you mentioned… I’ll just do all those things another time.”
Make sense now? I don’t hate Sunday School (besides the fact that I can’t think of a worse idea than to go to “school” on Sunday.”
I hate that we build competing systems.
I hate that our need to give everyone something to do has seriously impeded our desires to reach the next generation.
Our secondary goals have destroyed our primary goals.
What if our answer to people wanting something to do was; “You should think about serving”? (instead of worrying about being served?)
And most of all…here is the truth. The reason I think adult Sunday school is a destructive idea is this…
If leadership decided we needed to start adult Sunday school…They would destroy our vibrant, growing, effective student ministry.
What a terrible decision that would be!
Now…let me have it! What am I missing here?
Well…..you sir have obviously not spent enough time studying you King James Bible! haha
I like your point about Sunday School being about being served rather than serving others. Good stuff!
Hah!…Thanks for reading man. Appreciate itl
Killer post.. thinking of ways to change my identity to send this to my education pastor. When our family ministry team gets together this is where are discussion breaks down because of our church paradigm. Competing systems kill teamwork and a lot of other things. Blessings Bro!
Give me his number…I’ll call him.
I’m helping plant a church and we are talking about some of the same things you are stressing. I love your quote:
What if our answer to people wanting something to do was; “You should think about serving”? (instead of worrying about being served?)
Understandably so we should have something but adult sunday school may not be that something. Serving is so key in everything we do. In many ways the more your serve the more you get out of that serving than you would if you just debated/”learned”/etc. Not to say that this is wrong just to say that you learn/experience more by being on the front line than by being in the back studying.
Hopefully all this makes sense, it sounded good in my head, lol! Great post Coach!
Absolutely…I think my only problem with the whole concept is that every time I talk to a student guy who is beating the bushes to get good volunteers….he can’t because they would have to give up their “Sunday School.” I don’t think people understand how many people it takes to run an average size student ministry that’s actually effective…Add babies, children, parking cars, host teams to that and we’ve got plenty to do. Let’s just do “Sunday School” some other time. Name another time that many kids are in the building! This is prime time…Let’s not miss our opportunity.
Good stuff bro. For you to chew on: Our high school students meet in small groups across the area on various nights of the week just as our small groups do. I’d push you to take your thoughts further: how is keeping your student ministry on Sunday morning keeping you from integrating them into the volunteer ministry of the church? What if 9th graders were parking cars with their dads or helping people find seats with their moms or if an entire team of HS students were serving in some way. You get the picture. I think you are on to something and just wanting you to keep pushing your thought further. Glad to meet your blog!
Great point…My ministry is simply for middle school kids. Our high school kids come back that night for their program and small groups. That could be any night really…in Atlanta with our traffic…Sunday night is best. We have hundreds of them serving all over the church….20% of my volunteers are in HS (Though we don’t let them serve in MS until their in 10th grade)! Many of our middle schoolers serve with children and babies (with their parents) at another service. Serving is a lifestyle…as is community. We model it as soon as possible.
BTW…did you know that this was the number one statistic that kids who did not leave the church in common share?….they served in the church while in HS.
Keep it up Spence!
Agreed. My one thought would be decipleship for those new to the faith on Sunday mornings would be good. Lots of people are coming back to the church because of their children. Teach them at the same time as their children. But no class for those who have been in the church for more than 2 years.
Great point. Totally agree. And to be honest…they’re not the best small group leaders right away. They have some questions to answer before they can sit with a middle school kid and answer the same sort of questions. They can park cars though…for a couple of years. Maybe they can do their beginner class (what we call Starting Point) another time? Plugging into service is just so huge for growing people’s faith.
Love this! The culture of the adult Sunday School model has, in my experience, done more to hinder discipleship than to help people go deeper with Jesus. I pray this catches on and I pray that churches like mine can recover from the hangover of over consumption of self-centered ministries.
Thanks man…that’s been my experience too. I just really wanted to keep it to strategy though in my argument. I would say this though…I would put the personal growth of one of my volunteers up against the personal growth of someone in a traditional-sit-in-rows-discipleship-class any day. I’m just sayin….
So you don’t hate Sunday School, you hate competing programs. Totally on board there. If a congregation has competing programs, this needs to be dealt with in some positive manner. One possibility is to get rid of Adult Sunday School. If a church has no competition (because it’s a smaller congregation), then Sunday School may not be an issue.
And if there were something that I would suggest hating more than Adult Sunday School or competing programs combined, I would say it ought to be the cultural assumption that everything has to happen on Sunday morning.
Hey Paul,
Yup…that’s really the point. The title may be a bit “shock jock” admittedly. Just trying to get this convo rollin.
I don’t understand your point about smaller churches though…I grew up in a church of 30-40 people and my dad still had to chose between adult Sunday school and teaching us. Can you clarify?
You’re on point on the last point as well….Here are a couple of others….Discipleship is a curriculum. Discipleship is a class. Serving is sacrifice.
Thanks man…I’d really like to continue the discussion about smaller churches…email if you don’t want to do that here.
If the adult Sunday School is doing its job, it is equipping the saints for the work of the ministry. Talk to the adult teachers about casting a vision for teaching and serving the next generation.
Josh Hunt
Good Questions Have Groups Talking
http://www.joshhunt.com
Yep..thanks. I’d love to talk to senior pastors about casting that vision while I’m at it! Thanks Josh.
Well, you should know that I am a Sunday School champion. But, I’m also a small groups champion. Some churches do one or the other well, and some are able to do both well. Sometimes it’s a challenge to do both of these ministries well, but it can be done.
Here’s my take. It’s Bible study, fellowship, caring, evangelism and ministry that matter in this equation. Sunday school can provide that venue. So can small groups. If your church has a great corps of leaders in your student ministry, perhaps they should form a small group and meet on Sunday nights or Tuesday nights or something and do that. In the meantime, Sunday school is a pretty good idea (whether it is on Sunday — immediately following or preceeding the church’s primary weekend worship experience. That is when people are really likely to come by the way. Or if they choose to have Bible study and community during another time of the week, well, that’s good too. At some point, people will declare enough is enough and only give you two, three or maybe four hours of their week’s schedule. They will decide when that is.
But…Sunday school is not a bad idea. It is one of several good ideas a church can choose and it’s been a pretty productive one over the years. Sometimes it’s done half-heartedly and with not so well trained teachers and staff…and then it needs to be reworked or revitalized. But I wouldn’t kill it if it’s working well. If you can add a small group alongside it and make that work for those already leading SS classes, that is not a bad idea.
Take a look at David Francis’ book “Great Expectations: Planting Seeds for Sunday School Growth” which is available to download online at http://www.lifeway.com/sundayschool and see if he has any ideas that might work for you.
Hope this helps.
Richard Nations
Baptist Convention of Iowa
Thanks Richard…I concede all those points if family ministry has what it needs and Sunday School doesn’t get in the way.
My most common roadblock in working with student pastors and family ministry folks is Adult Sunday School. Pastors won’t touch it. So…the workforce to pull off a relevant and exciting environment sits in folding chairs upstairs while kids don’t see or get what they deserve.
Over half of our kids are leaving church once they get to college…we’ve got to get serious about our strategies. Something is not working.
I’ll try to check out your book…Thanks for your thoughtful response.
I feel a little bit weird commenting because I typically am biased for my particular ministry. Here is the problem though, it’s counter productive for both sides. If Sunday School is what you want to do, cool, but think about killing Student and Children’s Ministry on Sundays.
But if not then kill Sunday School. They very rarely work for one another, but I’m not ok with continuing to do something good, in place of something great.
Important Note: I’m a 5th and 6th grade ministry director, Not a pastor of education
Here’s all I’m thinking…
Kids don’t drive….let’s do their program when they are in the building. Adult Community and Fellowship has got to happen…but it can happen whenever. And it can be great too!
Does that make sense? Did I miss your point?
i guess one question I have is…
do all the parents of your teens work with the teens? If not, what do they do during that time? Are they serving somewhere else, or are they just staying home?
Just wondering.
they are attending the main service or serving in another capacity.
Nope…not at all. In fact, we try to discourage that. They do though work with the babies, children, host team, parking team, care team, etc. Some go to church while they’re kid is in our program and take their kid to serve with them the second service with the babies or children.
Some…don’t serve and just go to church while they’re student is in our program…they do their adult community some other time.
Answer the question? Great question.
Great post…one of the reasons we are able to serve kids on Sundays to the level we do AND the reaso we are able to serve adults in our Sunday gathering is because WE DON’T HAVE SUNDAY MORNING GROUPS FOR ADULTS.
Good post man!
money! Thanks Micahel
I am giving you a standing ovation on this one. Very well said. Thank you for leading and encouraging others in the process….!
Thanks Joy…see you at Orange this year?
Yes, of course! We never did get to have our shoe showdown last time….. Hope to meet you in person this year!
yup…Getting my shoes ready now! Showdown.
Some good points are definitely made in the post. However “killing” adult Sunday School, in my opinion, isn’t one of them.
Not every adult is called, gifted or qualified to serve. Not every adult even wants to serve in a classroom; some are not able to serve. What do you do with those adults while their younger family members are attending Sunday School/Bible Study?
A quality Bible Study experience sounds like a great answer to me.
It’s truly sad when an adult class won’t “release” their members to serve in other classes. It’s even more sad when adults won’t leave their SS nest to serve elsewhere. But let’s not throw out the baby with the bathwater.
That’s fair Steve…I really don’t want to kill Sunday School…I just was playing with words. In many ways though…adult Sunday school is killing children’s Sunday School. I just want to bring the conversation up so we can sort it out. Bible Study is so important…does it really have to happen during the children’s environments though…does it really have to happen on Sunday for that matter? Does it have to happen at the church? Over half of our kids are leaving the church in college…I think that’s an “all hands on deck” issue.
I don’t have a problem with SS. I do have a problem with SS as a means to learn more stuff about God. SS should be equipping the saints for the work of ministry not sitting in a classroom filling your head with more facts that you never use outside of your Christian community. SS should be a door to get those in who need the milk of the word, grow them spiritually, teach them to help others grow, then send them out like missionaries from the SS class. If every SS class was focused on making disciples and not growing bigger classes what would the church look like?
I love SS, but we have to redifine what SS is about. Thanks for the creating a great discussion!
Thanks Bob….Just remember that “sending them out” may be as much about Children and students who need to know the Truth as it is about outside mission work. Thanks for reading and commenting.
The only problem with your post is that you are talking about Sunday Schools that are not working properly. If that is what you have observed, before you throw the “baby ought with the bath water” you ought to see if there are churches that are making Adult SS work properly. A Sunday School or Bible Study Ministry for adults can be and should not be limited to just Sunday morning and it should be the arm of the church that helps people learn to grow in Christ and learn to serve. Adults that are only attending worship are not getting involved in ministry and growing with a community of believers. Small groups is where real life transformation takes place. We need to call believers to be disciples, not worship attenders. The entertainment church of today is one of the most destructive things to Christianity that I believe we have seen. Why did Willow Creek come out and say that they have been doing it wrong all these years and have not seen real transformation in peoples lives? If anything, get rid of worship services that promote entertaining people to entice them to come to Christ. The church in China is thriving through home churches that teach people to lead transformed lives in Christ. We need more emphasis on calling believers to live their faith out. Also, the children’s and teen ministries in America have taught adults that it is not their responsibility to teach their children. We are promoting the worldly view with teenagers don’t need to be with their families. We ought to have families engaging families in teaching Christ to help so many of the dysfunctional families learn how to parent. Just a few thoughts….
Thanks Jimmy,
I think you need to read it again…or better yet…I probably need to write it again. I agree with most of you points. My point was basically a simple strategic one. I don’t think we need to offer a competing opportunity for adults during children’s programming on Sunday mornings. That’s it. We need all the help we can get for the next generation…AND…I think serving can be a HUGE growth opportunity for adults.
Thanks man.
Thanks for responding and I don’t think you need to write it again. You may need to read my post again to get my point. It sounds like the worship service is the main competition to your children’s and youth ministry. Maybe we ought to cut the worship so that families can be taught to minister to and as a family with others. If you are going to “kill” anything, kill that which may producing the least amount of fruit for the kingdom of God. Just a thought….
Thanks Jimmy,
I’m not really sure how to respond to that. So I won’t.
Thanks for reading.
Shef
I have read through your post and much of the reponse. I respect your boldness and passion for your age group ministry but I have a perspective that is slightly different. First of all, I want you to know that I agree with your sentiments of adult classes who will not “send out” leaders and missionaries into preschool, children and youth ministries. Our purpose is about making disciples. Disciples at some point must initiate a disciple-making ministry of their own. A successful adult Sunday School leader is one who reaches new people, disciples believers, starts new classes and ministries and sends out leaders to age group ministries. It is at this point that I differ with your sentiments and opinion. Your focus is biased. It is from one perspective. Mine is from the perspective of all age groups. There are adults who are not ready for leadership and ministry. There are those that need an opportunity to serve in an adult class before they are sent out. Adult fellowship and ministry is vital to the needs of the adult just like it is for all people. A balanced approach to ministry takes the needs of all into perspective. Killing adult Sunday School would do more harm than good. Instead of kill it, work with those leaders who administer it to make it better instead of biting the hand that feeds you. I spent 18 years in student ministry before being demoted to adult work. But it is here that I can do the greatest benefit for all age group leaders. In the adult world, I can change the system from the inside. That is my cause and my passion. I am called to make disciples of all ages and in all nations. To that end, I will serve. Knowingly I do so in an imperfect world and a less than perfect church.
Thanks Sean….
I’m all for a beginners ministry during that time. We have one called Starting Point. It is one of our most important ministries. In fact, it is how we gauge success. That is not what I’m talking about at all. And, sadly that is not the situation for most adult Sunday School programs. My title “Kiliing Sunday” school was not a cry to kill Adult Sunday school…It was an attempt to highlight that many of our other programs are killing our Sunday School for children and students. That’s all. Adults need the attention as well…I’m just asking you to step back and look at the whole. Thanks for your thoughtful response.
Shef
Great post! I am at #orange11, and would love to get your thoughts on how to pull this off in a small church that has only one service & all SS (kids & adults) happens before big church. We have just started 252basics & hope to change our youth & preschoolers to Orange. However, all of our would-be volunteers are stuck in SS or they would be in big church. What to do? Another question…what do (new to church) parents do while their kids are in their groups….whether everything is before or during big church?
Thanks again for yor (re)post.
Take care
Chris
Hey Chris,
That is a tough one! I saw a great church in South Africa that actually ran a second service specifically for it’s volunteers…It wasn’t crowded and was a lot of work but man was it cool to be able to cast vision to those people every week! Anybody else have any ideas?
Shef
Here is some good news. Many adult classes are so bad people are happy to leave!
Hah! Absolutely!
Shef
Who does what you do at NP for adult community groups? The reason I ask is because my wife & I actually quit leading a young couples SS class (after we watched 2 couples divorce while attending…some “community” there, huh?!?) to start a small group so that we & others would have a safe environment to do life with other couples. Our group is about 8 months old, & I am constantly trying to find new resources to help our group…and to help start/lead future groups. Does anyone have a blog/conversation going for small groups like you do or Carey Neiwholf does for #stumin or #fammin?
I have read & reread Andy’s “Creating Community” book & several other great similar books.
Anything you can offer will be awesome!
Keep up the great work! I love your posts…especially this SS post!
Take care
Chris
Hey Chris,
I don’t know of an adult group blog…I can think of several people who would be great at it though. Have you seen the InsideNorthPoint Site? They have some great info there. Here’s the link for groups. Students will be launching their section very soon btw.
http://insidenorthpoint.org/groups/